Where are the XAML designer tools?

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Answers

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @Charwaka said:
    Hi @GiampaoloGabba
    Hot reload for UI is already here what do you mean by this ? LiveXaml is Dead , in my way i cant see it working upto crest.

    "LiveXaml is Dead", I don't undertstand that statement

    http://www.livexaml.com/

    It absolutely works.

  • CharwakaCharwaka INMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NMackay said:

    @Charwaka said:
    Hi @GiampaoloGabba
    Hot reload for UI is already here what do you mean by this ? LiveXaml is Dead , in my way i cant see it working upto crest.

    "LiveXaml is Dead", I don't undertstand that statement

    http://www.livexaml.com/

    It absolutely works.

    when i tried earlier it didn't worked well. may be i give a try one more shot and get back to you

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @Charwaka said:

    @NMackay said:

    @Charwaka said:
    Hi @GiampaoloGabba
    Hot reload for UI is already here what do you mean by this ? LiveXaml is Dead , in my way i cant see it working upto crest.

    "LiveXaml is Dead", I don't undertstand that statement

    http://www.livexaml.com/

    It absolutely works.

    when i tried earlier it didn't worked well. may be i give a try one more shot and get back to you

    Make sure you've firewall is not blocking it, you'll see debug info in the output window if it is. Also if your are having issues raise it with the author on the gitter page https://gitter.im/LiveXAML/Lobby

  • MimisssMimisss Member ✭✭

    We definitely need a visual designer for Xamarin Forms. We want RAD. We don't want to code the UI by hand in 2018.

    Embarcadero RAD Studio has done it, Android Studio has done it. Time for Xamarin to do it, too. Oh, and throw that previewer @#$% away as well.

    Funny, Microsoft used to be all about RAD and Visual. Now it is all about hacking tons of code by hand.

  • CharwakaCharwaka INMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    When will this end ?

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    It won't. Students (that's formal and self learning) all want visual tools. To be fair they can be a good learning aid. Student want to strike out fast and see an immediate result for their bit of work. Its the nature of learning.

    Experienced developers have been there, done that and have encountered the problems those tools cause and have had to work through all the fixes, problems and pitfalls they cause.

    There will always be students. There will always be experienced people.
    So the debate will continue forever.

  • batmacibatmaci DEMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AndreiMisiukevich_ said:
    @NMackay hi, i am keen to support and improve my opensource project HotReload

    https://github.com/AndreiMisiukevich/HotReload

    awesome job, thank you. is it possible to get rid of this restriction? I think that many developers dont favor to change their code like that.

       public App()
            {
    #if DEBUG
                HotReloader.Current.Start();
                this.InitializeElement();
    #else
                InitializeComponent();
    #endif
                MainPage = new NavigationPage(new MainPage());
            }
    
  • AndreiMisiukevich_AndreiMisiukevich_ USMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @batmaci agreed

    But i don't see any approaches, how to attach to InitializeComponent

    Any ideas?

  • batmacibatmaci DEMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    i am not sure also but i am just saying because livexaml and livereload works without it. i dont know how they do it. maybe you can ask @kzu

  • CharwakaCharwaka INMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hi @stanleybroo @ClintStLaurent @NMackay

    Here's the reply from Xamarin team

    You asked about why we don’t have a XAML Designer like UWP.

    **Unfortunately we cannot repurpose the existing designers like UWP for Xamarin.Forms, so it’s effectively a total rewrite. We now have a toolbox, a property panel, and soon an improved previewer surface. These lay the foundation for potentially doing a drag/drop designer if this is indeed where we can deliver the most value to Xamarin developers, but we are not investing in that presently.

    Have you used those tools I’ve just mentioned for Xamarin.Forms? What has been you’re experience?

    Have you used live reloading solutions like LiveXAML or Gorilla Player or Live Reload?**


    David Ortinau

    Senior Program Manager, Mobile Developer Tools

    Xamarin Mobile SDKs

    314.280.8445

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    Community wanted LiveReload, in VS2019 we have a previewer that is still a complete basketcase in VS2019 and if you're doing something more complex like a modular Prism app it's useless. For basic apps it sort of works.

    Property browser is okay but we all want LiveReload, something LiveXAML provides at the moment and OS alternatives like Andrei.

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Charwaka said:
    Hi @stanleybroo @ClintStLaurent @NMackay
    Here's the reply from Xamarin team
    You asked about why we don’t have a XAML Designer like UWP.
    Unfortunately we cannot repurpose the existing designers like UWP for Xamarin.Forms, so it’s effectively a total rewrite. We now have a toolbox, a property panel, and soon an improved previewer surface. These lay the foundation for potentially doing a drag/drop designer if this is indeed where we can deliver the most value to Xamarin developers, but we are not investing in that presently.
    Have you used those tools I’ve just mentioned for Xamarin.Forms? What has been you’re experience?
    Have you used live reloading solutions like LiveXAML or Gorilla Player or Live Reload?

    David Ortinau
    Senior Program Manager, Mobile Developer Tools
    Xamarin Mobile SDKs
    314.280.8445

    @DavidOrtinau

    Have you used those tools I’ve just mentioned for Xamarin.Forms?

    Toolbox: Who cares? Nothing really new there. All I've seen is that it is now prepopulated. So? You could always drag/drop your XAML text there to make your own customized toolbox of XAMl you used. If someone needs the toolbox pallet to drag-drop a Label to their markdown they need to stop and do some tutorials first. There is no use for the toolbox after one's 2nd week of working in XAML
    Property panel: Again... And? So? Do we really need an entire panel dedicated to showing that a Label has a given background or text color?
    How many hundreds of man-hours in these tools that no experienced developer gives two cents about... While countless bugs go without any attention/resolution. Who is prioritizing there?

    Have you used live reloading solutions like LiveXAML or Gorilla Player or Live Reload?**

    Absolutely love that even David is recommending LiveReload to people even though his own company stopped working on it.

    These lay the foundation for potentially doing a drag/drop designer if this is indeed where we can deliver the most value to Xamarin developers

    Its not. Having spent 15 years in WPF where we had a drag-n-drop I can tell you nobody with experience used it. ANd it was nice and fully working. But the nature of its need to guess your intent always means it creates bloated XAML with every property under the sun, instead of the minimal XAML you actually want. Tends to do absolute positioning for everything instead of layouts that will adjust to size and orientation changes etc. Its something that helps students but experienced professionals simply don't use.

    and soon an improved previewer surface.

    Warning: Talking like a grown up. Some viewers may be offended
    Watching development history of Xamarin Previewer is like watching Spiderman or Hulk movies: 5 origin stories and nothing beyond yet another reboot. I mean really what the heck? Has the team really painted themselves into a corner 5 times to the point where it was better to start over than work through it? That's some really bad software architect/manager situation. Or is the team just not that capable; so they keep starting over so they don't have to admit "we can't do it" and loose their jobs?

  • CharwakaCharwaka INMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reply from maddy leger

    there is a developer community ticket you can vote on here

    https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/idea/351900/xamarinforms-xaml-design-tool-equal-to-blend-for-u.html

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that's great in theory and hysterical in reality. They can't make a Preview tool after 3-5 attempts and people think they have the ability to make something on par with Blend.

    :smiley:

  • JohnHardmanJohnHardman GBUniversity mod
    edited April 23

    I wonder if the team that created Blend are still working at Microsoft. Surely they could help? I do still wonder though why it's so difficult. I (on my own) created a forms designer more than 20 years ago, that was used successfully for years at the company I created it for. What a Xamarin.Forms drag&drop designer would be would just be a slightly more involved version of that. What's the big deal in getting it right?

    Then again, I've said the same about the Microsoft Coded UI team assisting in getting Xamarin UITest to work for UWP many times, but it still looks like UWP will never be supported by UITest.

  • stanleybroostanleybroo USMember ✭✭
    edited April 24
    LiveReload and Edit & continue will do it for rapid dev.

    ..sofisticated tools like Blend ...for Xamarin Forms is a designers wet dream ;-)
    Anybody saying different just doesn't know how to use the tool, that's it.

    Why can't UWP be the base project for XF? And translate from that. I know I allways have UWP included in XF since compile times is just stunning in comparinson to Android and saves valuable dev time.

    I think the problem right now is that we have too many guys coming from the "web" side of things, running the show, just a personal feeling.
  • CharwakaCharwaka INMember ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24

    Hi @stanleybroo

    i asked same question ,here's the reply

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  • igorkr_10igorkr_10 Member ✭✭✭

    @Charwaka said:
    Hi @stanleybroo

    i asked same question ,here's the reply

    ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ? ??? ?? ??? ?????/?????? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ????. ? ?????? ???????? ?? ? ???? ?????? ?? ????, ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????!


    ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ? ????? ?? ???????????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ? ???? ????? ?? ????. ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????????????? ??? ? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ?? - ?? ???? ???? ?? ????????? ????? ??? ?????????? ??

    I think will be better to create CarouselView and ColectionView instead of visual designer

  • NickKovalskyNickKovalsky USMember ✭✭✭

    My guess is that xamarin is changing over time in such huge way that a visual designer would become obsolete every time (almost) a new xamarin.forms version comes out..

  • batmacibatmaci DEMember ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7

    we need a better working IDE not a fancy designer or fancy tools. this VS 2019 is quite performant on build and debugging but other than that it is totally buggy. they just rushed for their event to show off. otherwise it is not even a complete tool neither on windows nor on mac.

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7

    @batmaci said:
    we need a better working IDE not a fancy designer or fancy tools. this VS 2019 is quite performant on build and debugging but other than that it is totally buggy. they just rushed for their event to show off. otherwise it is not even a complete tool neither on windows nor on mac.

    On Windows I don't find VS2019 any more buggy than VS2017. Not any less either. Just X bugs fixed and X new bugs introduced. But to be fair who among us has perfect code first release out?

    Mac will probably never be on parity with the Windows edition because there is 15 years of head start to contend with.

    Not sure I concur with VS2019 being "an incomplete tool" though if you are taking out the stipulation for a visual XAML designer - which was always pointless when we had one in WPF. What do you find missing or incomplete?

  • batmacibatmaci DEMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is not possible to create app package for me on android and uwp on vs 2019. i am using 2019 only to debug and to create package i use 17. i believe that it is a big deal for those paying for enterprise license :)
    Regarding Mac, actually it is faster to load the project, faster to type, faster to build and debug. but there is one annoying issue, it keeps freezing every 10-30 mins and i need to kill the process every time. if it wasnt ios, i would never use it like that.

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