How to make .Forms stable…?

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  • RaphaelSchindlerRaphaelSchindler USMember ✭✭✭
    edited November 2015

    @GeorgeCook Wow, that looks powerful. You can be sure I'm gonna check this out.

    I want to add something to the topic, too. I'm in no way happy how Xamarin approached us with Forms 2.0 and there can't be a good enough reason to not inform us about it. It looks and feel like a shitty marketing idea. And after looking at the package it's just 1.5.2 -pre2 with another name. Same features, same bugs. I don't know why they did this and I don't want to speculate about it either. At least Xamarin 4.0 is stable and running (on my side).

    @FredyWenger brought up Bugzilla and the count of bugs. Yes, the numbers looking really high. But when you look through those "bugs" a lot of them are a case of RTFM or "bugdescriptions" who just states that something isn't working, without further details and so on. Or they are duplicates. So the "real" number is way smaller. Of course there are bugs that have been reported months ago and haven't seen a fix yet which sucks. I just want to say that this isn't a good reference to look at how stable forms is.

    In overall I'm ok with the stability and performance of Forms. I published 3 Apps completly written in Forms and they're running fast, stable and (almost) bug free. When our users see bugs or crashes those are my fault :)

    But the overall usability on WinPhone is utterly crap... I could release only 1 App out of 3 for WinPhone because of showstopper bugs that are reported for months. I hope that the integration for UWP makes this better.

    I personally think that @adamkemp is right, when he says that a lot of people that complain about Forms are pushing the framework beyond it's intended purpouse. I also think, that there are people who do this, without them even knowing that and then they complain. I use CustomRenderers really often and I almost never have problems with them. And if you stay in the boundaries of Forms there's almost no way to break it (Except bugs).

    @NMackay What are your problems with ImageButton? I added a lot of tweaks to the normal button in on of my apps so PM me and maybe I can help you :)

    Last but not least I'm adding an screenshot to show what you can do with Forms and only 2 CustomRenderers

    Those are just my 2cents.

  • GeorgeCookGeorgeCook PEUniversity ✭✭✭

    Cool app. The idea you posted of using very few custom renderers is the same I advocate for. All the uis that I make in tha blog post use ZERO custom renderers outside of a few simple generic views I provide in the library, which would make forms amazing if they were part of the framework.

    Your point is valid. Many people don't know how to use forms and complain about it; but that shouldn't have to invalidate my point, which I hope I've soundly proven, which is people who know what they are doing can do creative things with forms and xamarin should do more to enable those of us doing so.

  • RaphaelSchindlerRaphaelSchindler USMember ✭✭✭

    Thanks :)
    Actually I got inspired from you in this app with page in page. But I'm doing it in a more complicated way of swapping ContentViews in and out on the left part with the frame and providing some sort of "navigation". I think I'm gonna replace that with your PageViewContainer.

    No, your point is still valid and I would like to do a lot more with Forms. They should open up the API's a lot more. I have some crazy stuff in my mind which I can't do right now. And I'm too lazy to go the non Forms way :P

  • GeorgeCookGeorgeCook PEUniversity ✭✭✭

    And I'm too lazy to go the non Forms way :P

    yes! As Napoleon once put it:

    "There are four types of soldiers. The first are the dumb and lazy. These I make my infantrymen. The second are the smart and energetic. These I make my field commanders. The third type are the smart and lazy. These I make my generals."

  • Paul_RoyPaul_Roy FRMember ✭✭
    edited November 2015

    I couldn't agree more with @AnthonyRamirez. I have the exact same feedback.

    What is really problematic in my opinion, is this « black box » that Xamarin Forms is.

    I don't need to know what's under the box to compile C# for Android or iOS. I trust Xamarin, it's their expertise.

    But when it comes to Forms, it's a framework, and a framework that comes on top of their product. As any framework, it has its bugs, but right now I can't know for sure if a version will fix my bug, if it will impact me and in which way, and more importantly, how it works.
    So I'm using it, rather blindly, hoping for the best. And I spend hours getting along with it, understanding why this works and this doesn't. Finding ways to do what I need.

    Now I strongly believe it needs to be open-sourced. There are dozens of developpers that enjoy the framework, that believe in it and that would be ready to use their time to improve it. Microsoft did this (for .NET, for their compiler, recently for Azure App Services, …) and it was an incredible source of improvements.

    Please, Xamarin, let us help you in the process of making Xamarin Forms the best framework ever. We share the same goal, and we could be your best asset to achieve this. We could fix these bugs that annoy us. We could point out which line causes a bug when it occurs. We could offer you another point of view, the user point of view.

    I can't see any reason not to do this. Your licenses and your products are the real deal, and Xamarin Forms is a toolkit to convice us to use them. Let us help you stabilizing it, it's a win-win for both of us.

    Please.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @adamkemp:
    It seems, as we have the same "technical problem" with this thread like in the mid of September...
    @Paul_Roy has posted today (and also @GeorgeCook and @RaphaelSchindler) before), but the last modify property to the thread is still on Nov. 15. (actually on page 6)

    It would be nice, if you would solve the problem once again.
    Thanks

  • JohnHairJohnHair GBMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FredyWenger, I just tried to find this page by paging through and couldn't locate it, although the search for this page 'how to make forms stable' still works.
    This is the 2nd time this has happened to this thread, where it mysteriously gets buried. Lets hope they manage to resolve the issue again.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JohnHair:
    As I wrote, simply the last modify Date + Time isn't modified anymore to this thread (exactly the same as the last time whereby another user has wrote this is a "feature" of the vanille forum to prevent the thread to pop, but Adam said, it was a technical problem, therefore I have mentioned him above).
    B.t.w. the correct date is Nov. 19 since the thread date + time isn't updated anymore (I have wrote Nov. 15 what is false).
    Maybe we should create an external blog to prevent such technical problems...

  • adamkempadamkemp USInsider, Developer Group Leader mod

    I didn't say it was a technical problem. I suggested that it could be an automatic behavior rather than a deliberate behavior. I didn't do anything to "fix" it. I'm not even sure where you see the modified date...

    Regardless, I'm done with this thread. I don't find it useful (to me).

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Adamkemp:
    Thanks for at least post an answer here :smile:
    O.K. you're out here :smirk:

  • Mark.9492Mark.9492 USMember

    I remember seeing ~500 bugs listed more than a year ago. Fast forward to today, the number is the same. It seems like Xamarin is introducing new bugs at the rate they are closing the old ones. This makes me believe their testing isn't as robust as one would hope. I'm not sure if Forms will ever be "stable" if things continue this way.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mark.9492:
    Yes! and if you wonder, that this thread don't pop in the .forms forum...
    Xamarin has prevented it from popping and also has deleted some of my postings to this thread.
    It's a real shame :-1: :-1: :-1:

  • GuyProvostGuyProvost CAMember ✭✭✭

    You mean that some posts you wrote arent showing here ???

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GuyProvost
    Excactly :disappointed:

  • GuyProvostGuyProvost CAMember ✭✭✭

    Dunno what to think... We bet on Xamarin for a project we are working on a friend and I. We are experienced .NET devs (since 2002), but not so much in mobile native development and right now we are really rethinking the way we should have done it. When we tried the sample to see why what we do doesn't work as it should, lots of them doesn't even compile anymore! Looks like Xamarin play a game of catchup behind the Apple and more apparently Google SDKs... And it's a game that Xamarin seems to slowly lose! Maybe we should had swallow the Google and Apple pills back then and go fully native when we started the project! I was expecting Xamarin to be at least a bit supportive on these forums, but the high number of unanswered questions is staggering!

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GuyProvost:
    Yes, and it don't becomes better (same as a year ago).
    Therefore, I ask my customer to do the next app maybe with Xamarin-Android only, what should be a lot more stable:
    http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/180707/#Comment_180707

  • GuyProvostGuyProvost CAMember ✭✭✭

    I guess that may explain why everything seems to be stalled!

    weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/welcoming-the-xamarin-team-to-microsoft

  • MarkMadlangbayanMarkMadlangbayan USUniversity ✭✭

    This might be a good thing for us. I hope they'll put effort to make Xamarin more stable.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MarkMadlangbayan
    Yes! .Forms can only becomes better :disappointed:

  • Matthew.4307Matthew.4307 USMember ✭✭✭

    Forms 2.0 fixed a lot of bugs, bugs that they introduced in Forms 1.5 :(. Forms 2.1 then fixed some bugs but added some far more critical ones in their place, including some fixed way back ~1.3. It's possibly getting worse at the moment.

  • batmacibatmaci DEMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    Unbelievable, This thread is still hot in 2017 although Xamarin is a Microsoft product now. I guess that Microsoft put his all effort on VS2017 running on Mac as it looks like a copy of Xamarin Studio. What annoys me most is that as a Microsoft developer, as a Windows user I am forced to buy a Mac even I don't want to target IOS using XF. For most of the good features I mostly need mac connector and premium account.

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