How to make .Forms stable…?

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  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @JKay

    Good shout about the survey. I've already filled it in but was surprised it wasn't pinned as it's extremely important.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    At all readers of this thread:
    Maybe you also want to give your feedback/suggestions about the forum in this thread:
    https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42324/wishes-to-the-forum#latest

  • TektonTekton USMember ✭✭✭

    @GeorgeCook I'd give you two likes (and Fredy's too, for that matter), for that last post, if it'd let me. :innocent: I have to ask the same, "What is Xamarin.Forms, to Xamarin?"

  • codenutzcodenutz GBMember

    @MigueldeIcaza

    +1 for a release blog

  • TektonTekton USMember ✭✭✭

    There is a definite fork in the road here. And the path chosen ultimately depends on how Xamarin decides to respond to a number of things, such as, "What is Xamarin.Forms to Xamarin?" We'll cut our losses and run, if MS buys out Xamarin, or it appears that Xamarin doesn't really care about this 'pillar'. (I'd consider it a pillar, as well, @plynkus.)

  • voidvoid DKBeta ✭✭✭
    edited May 2015

    Nothing is closer at delivering complete native cross platform than XF. And Xamarin is a company that is built around that promise. So XF is going nowhere but forward.

    Xamarin is merely buying time. Talking down expectations. Trying to remove pressure. They will catch up. They have no choice. Or someone else will snatch the ball and run - XF is a solid proof of concept.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    +1 to @void

    I think, this thread has hit a nerve of Xamarin community and also of Xamarin itself.
    2,7 K views and 90 reply’s within 11 days shows a clear picture to the Xamarin community.
    The fact, that Miguel has replied himself to this thread (and has done some promises) shows, that also Xamarin definitely has took notice.

    I see a lot of activity in Bugzilla, what let me hope for a real “stable” next version soon...

    Xamarin staff also has done some promises, to resolve the (really!) annoying debugger problems here:
    http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/41844/my-findings-after-test-if-the-newest-xamarin-vs-integration-software#latest

    So - maybe - we simply have to wait for the next weeks (not months) and see what happens….?

  • AnthonyRamirezAnthonyRamirez USUniversity ✭✭✭

    I'm with you @FredyWenger, @GeorgeCook and @plynkus !

    The more I use X.Forms, get comfortable with it and push it, the more powerful it becomes. I walk away thinking "this was the missing piece to make Xamarin the best mobile dev choice.", at least LOB apps.

    I just renewed my subscription and eagerly awaiting @MigueldeIcaza next response

  • JKayJKay USMember ✭✭✭

    I think a proper response is needed on this thread rather soon. They can't keep burying their heads in the sand.

    Also... Reposting Xamarin's Xamarin.Forms survey as they STILL haven't sitckied it

    https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42368/xamarin-forms-future-survey

  • GeorgeCookGeorgeCook PEUniversity ✭✭✭

    sorry @MigueldeIcaza - we posted at the same time. I didn't mean to steal your thunder! Thanks for the response.

    I'm making a point in my communications (with colleauges, clients and in my blogging) to follow your line as well : Forms can do amazing things, if you know how; but if you don't - it does basic stuff amazingly simply - and Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android are still there if you need them.

    I'm taking your statement to mean that you're not going to lock down access to renderers for the more experienced devs who are writing cutting edge components, and that we can expect some responses to our bug tickets which require slightly more exposure of apis to allow us to build the most amazing stuff? We're not looking for hand-holding, just a foot-hold to allow us to do brilliant stuff, and the security that Xamarin won't pull the rug from under our feet, if we decide to build amazing apps with Forms (which is what many of us are very keenly doing).

  • MichaelRidlandMichaelRidland AUInsider, University ✭✭✭

    @GeorgeCook Great post George.

    I've got 5 high quality apps built with Xamarin.Forms in the appstores. I've never found a issue in Xamarin.Forms that I cannot work around. The part that's great about Xamarin and Xamarin.Forms is the flexibility, you can jump between Native, Forms and Hybrid with ease.

    The past apps I've built have mixes of all of them, it's a real testament to Xamarin, I've blogged about it recently.

  • GeorgeCookGeorgeCook PEUniversity ✭✭✭

    ha! @MichaelRidland I'd already ready your blog post and found it very interesting. I'm glad you shared it here too.

    Anyone else got examples of apps that take Xamarin's UI experience to the max?

  • MichaelRidlandMichaelRidland AUInsider, University ✭✭✭

    Also thank you @GeorgeCook and others for pushing the platform and holding it to high standards, it makes it better for all of us.

  • DavidAllenDavidAllen USDeveloper Group Leader ✭✭✭

    @GeorgeCook - Great post and great blog.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MigueldeIcaza

    We are working to get updates to Xamarin.Forms quickly to you guys. I am guessing that we will have a package with many of these fixes in about two to three weeks (when we ship our 2nd service release to the platform).

    Three weeks are over next Tuesday… :smirk:

    Can you give us a date for the next release please..?

    Thanks

  • nemephxnemephx USMember

    @MigueldeIcaza You indicated that there are ~50 bugs left. Just wondering how you came up with this number? I see 377 on Bugzilla. Did you mean only the "confirmed" bugs? Anything "new" or "needs info" is likely to turn into a confirmed item, so I assume it's more than 50. Thanks for listening to community feedback.

  • MigueldeIcazaMigueldeIcaza USXamarin Team Xamurai

    Fredy, I am hoping that it will happen next week. Our team lead is on vacation currently.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015

    @MigueldeIcaza:
    Thanks for your feedback and....
    ... let’s hope, that the team lead has recovered well, charged the battery and is ready to take off.. :wink:

  • JohnHardmanJohnHardman GBUniversity mod

    And let's hope there isn't key-person risk involved... Would like to think a release that many of us are waiting for isn't held up by one person being unavailable.

  • Josh.7724Josh.7724 USMember, University

    Hi @MigueldeIcaza, do you have a definitive date / time this week you expect to release the new pre-release version?

    We cannot currently deploy to ARM devices for WinUniversal, or create store packages for them.

    Thanks.

  • Josh.7724Josh.7724 USMember, University

    @MigueldeIcaza With today's pre3 update, we can now deploy to WinUniversal ARM, thanks a TON!

  • MarkMadlangbayanMarkMadlangbayan USUniversity ✭✭

    @FredyWenger, very useful info.

    I released an XF-based iOS app a month ago. It was more than four months of struggle, and frustration. The app is very simple app with no fancy animation/graphics using oauth2, listview, 4 pages, images, and REST services (GET/POST). All views (I'm not kidding) have custom renderers; requiring me to reimplement on Android and WP. The code is very fragmented in a way that there are some code in xaml, code-behind, custom-render, and platform-specific project. My code have mix match of XAML ICommand bindings and Xaml tied to a code-behind that in turn calls a method in the VM because there's no bindable command available.

    I spent my time mostly trying to make a should be trivial task to work, and end up being a bug or I have to make a platform-specific code.

    I so wish that Xamarin introduced XF as a preview like what they did on Xamarin Insights and other products like Xamarin Sketch. This way, devs like me will stay away from it for production until trivial functionalities get resolved. Don't get me wrong, I'm still responsible for making the decision, and it's my mistake. It's just that the demos, blogs and initial dry-run codding looked really promising, until I started coding for the real thing. I felt it the snow ball of workarounds kept getting bigger and bigger until it was too late to back out.

    For now, I'm staying away from XF on new projects. Used to be a strong XF advocate recommending people left and right, and now telling them it has potential but not ready for prime time.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MarkMadlangbayan:
    Thanks for your posting.

    It was more than four months of struggle, and frustration

    I had the same problems like you (and... maybe a bit more :smirk:) :

    If XF almost a year ago was like it is today, it would have saved me months...

    But... however... as I wrote in my posting - I now have my app's in the shops :smile:
    ...and hope, it becomes better and better now on a fast pace... :flushed:

  • MarkMadlangbayanMarkMadlangbayan USUniversity ✭✭

    @FredyWenger, I share the same hope with you :smile: . I'd like to build LOB apps or quick and dirty apps that I don't have to code it with classic Xamarin iOS/Android. Something like XF is a better fit.

  • MarkMadlangbayanMarkMadlangbayan USUniversity ✭✭

    @AndreiNitescu, I agree.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MarkMadlangbayan and @AndreiNitescu
    Agree with you both :smile:

  • rogiheerogihee NLMember ✭✭✭

    @FredyWenger : well I finally managed to get my apps published as well in the Android and iOS stores. First time for both even with custom Bluetooth hardware, so getting better at that as well ;-)

    It was a big struggle, yes, and I'm especially not happy yet with TableView performance on Android. It is almost acceptable but not nearly as smooth as native. I still have to try George Cook's FastCell thing. And when do we get full AppCompat support ;-)?

    But I'm sure that that will get better in time, I just hope that it will come soon.

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    Add to the agrees.

    Forms 1.4.3 stable is definitely a jump forward in smoothness & performance, it's allowed us to finish one app off and polish up some prototypes.

    Been down the hybrid road and don't fancy writing native stuff. These Forms allow our WPF guys to move over to Xamarin much quicker as it's all XAML and MVVM pattern.

  • BlueRajaBlueRaja USMember ✭✭
    edited July 2015

    Just to throw in my 2-cents, I think the Xamarin.Forms team should focus on this order:

    1. Bug-fixes, cleaning up Bugzilla
    2. Creating a graphical designer for Xamarin.Forms. It is the one missing feature that makes Xamarin.Forms feel massively incomplete.
    3. Adding cross-platform controls/APIs to reduce the amount of platform-specific code. It's entirely possible to get this down to 0%, which would be a huge selling point for Xamarin. You could save your developers an enormous amount of time by leveraging existing open-source work:

      • NGraphics for cross-platform drawing and NControl, a Xamarin control which uses NGraphics for custom-drawn controls.
      • SQLite and its PCL-fork SQLite-PCL for cross-platform local database querying.
      • PCLStorage, a cross-platform File API
      • Xamarin.Forms Labs, a large number of cross-platform controls and APIs specifically designed for Xamarin.Forms.

      All of the above are released under licenses that would allow Xamarin to use and ship the code with Xamarin.Forms.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭
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