Why Xamarin will never be production-grade code

Bill_GatesBill_Gates USMember ✭✭

Over a month ago, I made a post on the (then) UrhoSharp sub-forum pointing out the obvious, that UrhoSharp, like many other Xamarin projects before it (CocosSharp, SkiaSharp, Visual Studio Android Emulator, Xamarin Studio, Forms Previewer and I'm sure there are a bunch more since I've only been using Xamarin for a year) had apparently been abandoned because .NET Standard support still hadn't been implemented for UrhoSharp a year after Miguel's promised deadline.

Surprisingly, Miguel de Icaza actually responded and said that the developer responsible for UrhoSharp (Egor) had been misallocated and said "On Standard, Egor was going to take a look last week, we should have an update soon." (notice the weasel words and lack of a specific deadline). It has now been another month, still without a .NET Standard UrhoSharp release. Looking at Github, Egor checked in a few hundred lines of mostly auto-generated changes (i.e. changing a property in the Project Properties page) by November 12th. It has sat there ever since, supposedly waiting on a broken Continuous Integration build server).

Personally, if one of my developers took two weeks to make a bunch of Property page changes and then spent weeks doing nothing, blaming it on their Continuous Integration server, instead of just manually doing a NuGet build and release, I would fire them, but hey, that's how I roll.

Anyway, the main purpose of this post is not to bash the Xamarin team, but rather to warn people contemplating using Xamarin about what they should know before they take the leap (and more specifically, why I don't think things will ever change).

In my previous UrhoSharp post, I mentioned a Docker rant that I had read and noted that if you replaced the word 'Docker' with 'Xamarin', it would be equally true:

"The Docker release cycle is the only constant in the Docker ecosystem:
1. Abandon whatever exists
2. Make new stuff and release
3. Ignore existing users and retro compatibility"

“We make software not for people to use but because we like to make new stuff.” — Future Docker Epitaph

My first experience with Xamarin a year ago was this. I installed Visual Studio and the Xamarin frameworks, ran the new project wizard and hit 'Build'. Normally this type of 'Hello World' project would compile in seconds. Instead, I got this error:

"Build action 'EmbeddedResource' is not supported by one or more of the project's targets"

Thus began the first of endless trips to the Xamarin Forums and StackOverflow. Can you believe that? Six years after Xamarin was formed, the new project wizard STILL didn't work. And that's just the beginning. The first reply to 90% of the help requests on these forums start with "Quit Visual Studio, delete all project 'bin' and 'obj' folders, and restart Visual Studio". Does that sound like a seven-year old 'mature' product or an alpha release?

If you look at the bug counts for Xamarin, Xamarin Forms, UrhoSharp, etc, etc, etc, they only go up over time. Xamarin Forms is now up to 935 open bugs. A couple of years ago, that number was 600. Simply put, there is no desire to do the 'boring' work of making Xamarin reliable. It is why so many open-source projects are useless - The developers are only interested in the 'glory' of being the acknowledged creator of something new and working on the fun parts. When it comes to the boring bits of bugfixes, testing and documentation, well, that's for the 'community' to do.

Anyway, this got me to thinking about why, two years after Microsoft bought Xamarin, nothing has changed. And I believe I know the answer. Sit down, cause here comes the answer and it's going to blow your mind.

Microsoft doesn't want Xamarin to succeed.

Think about it. Right now, Microsoft has everything they want from Xamarin. And the Xamarin devs have everything they want as well. Let me explain.

First off, Microsoft's point of view. With Xamarin (and Mono), Microsoft gets to virtue-signal to the moon. "Look at us! We're so great! We're open-source and cross-platform and magical unicorns graze on the Microsoft campus! We're nothing like the bad old Steve Ballmer anti-trust monopoly Microsoft! This is the new kind and gentle Microsoft that saves the rainforests and serves organic vegan free-range hummus in our cafeterias!"

Secondly, from the Xamarin devs' point of view. They get paid to play all day! How can you beat that? Their recent blog post announcing Xamarin Forms 3.3 was FILLED with examples of all the "community contributions". How awesome is that? You get to collect a fat paycheck from Microsoft while letting annoyed Xamarin users fix their own bugs! It's having your cake and eating it too.

Now the question you may be asking yourself is: Why would Microsoft allow this? No self-respecting company (other than Google and Apple) would want its employees to collect a paycheck for doing nothing all day.

Microsoft doesn't want Xamarin to succeed.

Think about it. If Xamarin was bug-free and easy and reliable to use, then people wouldn't be shackled to Windows. They'd just write their app once and start running it on Mac, iOS, Android and (horrors!) ChromeOS.

Right now, Xamarin is perfect for Microsoft. They get to tout how open-source and cross-platform friendly they are while knowing that anyone who actually tries to write a cross-platform app using Xamarin will be punching holes through their monitor(s) with their fists in no time. If Xamarin and/or Microsoft were serious about this making this product useable, there would be a full-time dev solely devoted to debugging and closing bug reports. And WFP XAML and Xamarin XAML would be merged so that you could actually use a GUI forms designer like Expression Blend instead of using 'code' to create UI's. In 2018! Can you believe that?

Anyway, this rant has gone on long enough. For quick demo's whipped up for Marketing that must be cross-platform, Xamarin is okay. For any production (or God-forbid, mission-critical) app, forget it. Any time you save from avoiding maintaining three different codebases will be eaten up on endless debugging and workarounds. And that is not even mentioning the flakiness and random crashes.

Personally, for myself, I am going to be spending the next six months migrating my Xamarin Forms app to separate native iOS, Android and WinForms versions. I was never happy about Xamarin's lack of support of Windows 7 & 8 but was willing to live with it. But I've reached my threshold of pain and it's time to make a clean break. I've looked into the other cross-platform solutions and they're all cr*p - Flutter, PhoneGap (what a joke), etc. And this is coming from someone who LOVES C# and Visual Studio. Anyway, I hope this helps someone else. I wish I had known what I know now before I jumped in head-first.

Posts

  • JohnHairJohnHair GBMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bill_Gates said:

    Hi Bill!
    Whilst I agree with many of your observations, I don't agree with your conclusions.
    I completely agree with how they approach software development: what is new and shiny, what is exciting, jump on that and try it, release something that looks cool, then abandon it when something more interesting and shiny comes along. The most recent example of this for me would be Xamarin Live Reload. It is much better than the previewer but they arbitrarily cancelled it, pulled it off the market place, with no viable alternative. Ok they returned it to the store due to feedback from the community, but this is indicative of a bigger problem within Xamarin and Microsoft, in my opinion.
    I also looked at Xamarin Live Player, and with simple apps it was great. But the built in limitations meant it just wouldn't work for most developers. With proper analysis ahead of development this should have been realised and the development not even started.

    However, I completely disagree that Microsoft wants Xamarin to fail. I totally disagree that the Xamarin devs are here just for a pay cheque, (ok we all have to eat), I believe they do care about the product and they want it to succeed.

    Who do I think is to blame? I blame Xamarin higher management for allowing this state to happen, and possible actively encouraging it. Of course, I don't know the inner workings so could be completely wrong, it is just the impression I get.

    With our Xamarin development I restrict the number of external libraries we use, so outside of Xamarin.iOS, .Droid, .Forms, we include Newtonsoft.JSON (of course), AutoFac, AutoMapper, and Akavache. I deliberately keep our dependency tree as small as possible for various reasons including those mentioned above.

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    I would never criticise the Forms team, they do a great job and deserve the credit. I think some of theses issue lie in Visual Studio which has continued to struggle in 2018 and the senior management like John suggested, the shambles of LiveReload proved that was the case and they don't listen.

    Still, for cross platform I feel this is the best approach, look at the high profile companies abandoning React and look at Flutter, interesting but over 4300 open issues (900 critical issues).

    I totally agree the tooling is not up to scratch for Xamarin devs, it can look a bit abandoned if your new to it (Without cleaning and rebuilding the app library 1st your start project will never compile for example). 2019 is an important year, they have to get VS2019 right once and for all, if it's more of the same that VS2017 gives us then that's not a good thing.

  • meepoumeepou FRMember ✭✭
    edited December 2018

    @Bill_Gates said:
    Any time you save from avoiding maintaining three different codebases will be eaten up on endless debugging and workarounds. And that is not even mentioning the flakiness and random crashes.

    I feel that so much and I couldn't agree more. The overall developer experience is really frustrating, there is too many issues at each releases, bad performances, and we often have to use hack everywhere to get things done. Adding to that, it sometimes feel like the Xamarin team/support team is sleeping, same for the community.

    It's a shame because the C# API for iOS and Android is really great and I enjoy it more than Swift, Obj-C or Java. It has a great potential, but I think that today the only benefit of Xamarin is if your team's background is C# only. Otherwise other cross-platform frameworks makes more sense.

    I really hope Microsoft will put more efforts into Xamarin to make it more efficient and stable.

    (As of the time I'm posting this, https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com is down and it shows Xamarin unreliability, I have an issue, I can't find help about it, and it's breaking my production app)

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @meepou said:

    @Bill_Gates said:
    Any time you save from avoiding maintaining three different codebases will be eaten up on endless debugging and workarounds. And that is not even mentioning the flakiness and random crashes.

    I feel that so much and I couldn't agree more. The overall developer experience is really frustrating, there is too many issues, bad performances, and we often have to use hack everywhere to get things done. Adding to that, it sometimes feel like the Xamarin team/support team is sleeping, same for the community.

    It's a shame because the C# API for iOS and Android is really great and I enjoy it more than Swift, Obj-C or Java. It has a great potential, but I think that today the only benefit of Xamarin is if your team's background is C# only. Otherwise other cross-platform frameworks makes more sense.

    I really hope Microsoft will put more efforts into Xamarin to make it more efficient and stable.

    (As of the time I'm posting this, https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com is down and it shows Xamarin unreliability, I have an issue, I can't find help about it, and it's breaking my production app)

    "same for the community.". Explain....

  • meepoumeepou FRMember ✭✭
    edited December 2018

    @NMackay said:
    "same for the community.". Explain....

    I'm talking about 3rd party libraries, help on forums, stackoverflow, overall forum and online activity

    Also chinese bots on forum that takes hours, days to be deleted

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    Ummm ok.

  • JohnHairJohnHair GBMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @meepou said:

    I feel that so much and I couldn't agree more. The overall developer experience is really frustrating, there is too many issues at each releases, bad performances, and we often have to use hack everywhere to get things done. Adding to that, it sometimes feel like the Xamarin team/support team is sleeping, same for the community.

    I disagree on some of your points here. I think the community is rather excellent, the amount of peer support here is outstanding. It does however get frustrating dealing with new developers that do not know how to google, that ask the same questions as the previous person, have no prior knowledge of MVVM and think they can just jump into mobile dev without doing the prerequisite learning.
    That is just my 2pence.

  • meepoumeepou FRMember ✭✭

    @JohnHair said:

    @meepou said:

    I feel that so much and I couldn't agree more. The overall developer experience is really frustrating, there is too many issues at each releases, bad performances, and we often have to use hack everywhere to get things done. Adding to that, it sometimes feel like the Xamarin team/support team is sleeping, same for the community.

    I disagree on some of your points here. I think the community is rather excellent, the amount of peer support here is outstanding. It does however get frustrating dealing with new developers that do not know how to google, that ask the same questions as the previous person, have no prior knowledge of MVVM and think they can just jump into mobile dev without doing the prerequisite learning.
    That is just my 2pence.

    Well we don't have the same feeling about it, and I agree with your point on new developers.

    I think I feel this way because I'm comparing to others frameworks like Android Native, iOS Native, RN, ... Which are frameworks with much more active communities, tutorials, 3rd party libraries, ...

    However I can say that Xamarin documentation is one of the best, and it has many official tutorials + xamarin university (which I've never used)

  • Bill_GatesBill_Gates USMember ✭✭

    @meepou said:
    I'm talking about 3rd party libraries, help on forums, stackoverflow, overall forum and online activity

    @NMackay said:
    Ummm ok.

    Actually, I think @meepou has a valid point. There was a post I read on here yesterday (sorry, I can't seem to find it again) comparing the number of posts about Xamarin on StackOverflow and the number of Xamarin jobs on DICE and it seemed like there was a lot less community support for Xamarin than other technologies.

    @Hortinz said:
    What a poor post. You basically point out something so specific as UrhoSharp to say Xamarin is not production grade code. Maybe it doesn't work for you but it works for a lot of people. The same way React native or any other technologies work for some but don't work for others.

    Lol. I knew a Xamarin apologist would show up. Look, I listed FIVE technologies that Xamarin developed and abandoned (and @JohnHair pointed out a sixth, Live Reload). So it wasn't just UrhoSharp. The forum is littered with people complaining FOR YEARS about the bugs and instability and abandoned products. And I was being nice. If you don't believe me, check out this thread (called "Xamarin SUCKS! Lessons learned from weeks wasted"):

    https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/356284

    @Hortinz said:
    About the bugs? The number of bugs doesn't say how stable a software is. Also if more people are using a technology everyday, that bug count will only increase.

    Umm... Actually the number of open bugs is the DEFINITION of how unstable a codebase is.

    @Hortinz said:
    If you know any platform, framework or software bug free, please let us know!

    Actually, mine. I subscribe to the "No bugs" philosophy and never let my bug count get above one. If I find a bug, I do a root-cause analysis right there and then.

    @Hortinz said:
    You seem rather frustrated by Cross Platform solutions. Which is fine, there is bugs and sometimes can be very frustrating. I think we've all been there :) For me personally, I don't use XF, so maybe pointing out what didn't work for you would be better instead of that "theory" about having the community work for them.

    I am not frustrated by cross-platform solutions. I am frustrated with companies and/or developers who promise the moon, and deliver a flaky pebble.

    @seanyda said:
    Do you really think Microsoft intentions of buying Xamarin in the first place was to take over the product to give there customers a bad experience... I don't think so.

    Nope. I think they bought it to kill off a potential competitor, just like Oracle did with MySQL. Buy it and slowly starve it to death.

  • Bill_GatesBill_Gates USMember ✭✭

    @Bill_Gates said:

    Nope. I think they bought it to kill off a potential competitor, just like Oracle did with MySQL. Buy it and slowly starve it to death.

    @JohnHair said:
    That's an odd statement, in what way was Xamarin a competitor to Microsoft? It extended Microsoft's toolset quite considerably.

    Like I wrote in the original post, a good cross-platform runtime is a threat to Windows dominance. If you can write once and it works just as well on a $99 Chromebook as a $299 Windows PC, well, then you have a big problem.

    @JohnHair said:
    But as you say, this is what you think. We are all capable and entitled to think differently. :smile: I just think your conclusions are wrong.

    Acknowledged. My curiosity was "Why are things still the same after so many years?" You can see the same complaints going back all the way to 2012. I think a lot of people expected things to get better after the Microsoft acquisition. And yet here we are, almost in 2019, and things are still roughly the same (some say better, others say worse). When things stay static, even in the presence of factors that should drive positive change, then usually there are (hidden) reasons why they are staying the same (or getting worse).

    Now, it could be like other people speculated: That Xamarin upper management is at fault. Or maybe it's like Skype or Nokia and Microsoft just shoved it in the corner and didn't know what to do with it. Or maybe, as I speculated, it was just bought for PR (public relations) purposes (like GitHub), just to dispel the bad old Microsoft image and was never meant to be successful.

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @Bill_Gates said:

    @Bill_Gates said:

    Nope. I think they bought it to kill off a potential competitor, just like Oracle did with MySQL. Buy it and slowly starve it to death.

    @JohnHair said:
    That's an odd statement, in what way was Xamarin a competitor to Microsoft? It extended Microsoft's toolset quite considerably.

    Like I wrote in the original post, a good cross-platform runtime is a threat to Windows dominance. If you can write once and it works just as well on a $99 Chromebook as a $299 Windows PC, well, then you have a big problem.

    @JohnHair said:
    But as you say, this is what you think. We are all capable and entitled to think differently. :smile: I just think your conclusions are wrong.

    Acknowledged. My curiosity was "Why are things still the same after so many years?" You can see the same complaints going back all the way to 2012. I think a lot of people expected things to get better after the Microsoft acquisition. And yet here we are, almost in 2019, and things are still roughly the same (some say better, others say worse). When things stay static, even in the presence of factors that should drive positive change, then usually there are (hidden) reasons why they are staying the same (or getting worse).

    Now, it could be like other people speculated: That Xamarin upper management is at fault. Or maybe it's like Skype or Nokia and Microsoft just shoved it in the corner and didn't know what to do with it. Or maybe, as I speculated, it was just bought for PR (public relations) purposes (like GitHub), just to dispel the bad old Microsoft image and was never meant to be successful.

    That's constructive :wink:

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod
    edited December 2018

    There's many apps out there in the store with in Xamarin native & Forms, certain banks use it and pretty big companies, prominent digital agencies etc. It's been used in production (our Forms app is in three stores), I don't get the production-grade title.

  • Bill_GatesBill_Gates USMember ✭✭

    @NMackay said:
    There's many apps out there in the store with in Xamarin native & Forms, certain banks use it and pretty big companies, prominent digital agencies etc. It's been used in production (our Forms app is in three stores), I don't get the production-grade title.

    Hey, if Xamarin saves you time, then great, I'm glad for you. Obviously, "production-grade" is a subjective term that means different things to different people. But what pushed me over the edge were the following:

    1. Getting stuck on Xamarin Forms 2.5.1.527436 for months due to UrhoSharp not being .NET Standard 2.0 compatible because Egor ignored a pull request to add it for five and a half months.

    2. No GUI designer and no hope of having one for many more years

    3. Build, deploy and load times, especially on iOS

    4. No UrhoSharp anti-aliasing on UWP. Instead of finding and fixing the problem, Egor just disabled anti-aliasing on all UWP sample projects. Because, you know, who needs good looking graphics on Windows in 2018?

    5. Lack of Windows 7 & 8 support

    6. The usual: Manually cleaning the build and restarting Visual Studio, random crashes, endless workarounds to beat Xamarin into doing what I want it to do, you know the drill.

    7. No hope that any of this will ever change. Let's face it: If the Microsoft acquisition was going to change anything, it would have happened by now. But everything is still the same as it ever was. Even in this thread, there are people still defending Xamarin and thinking that things will change. They make me laugh. It's like watching Charlie Brown thinking that Lucy won't pull the football away this time even though she did it a thousand times before.

    Someone above pointed to the "Roadmap". Hahahahahahahahahaha. We've seen the Roadmap a thousand times before. Let me spoil the plot and tell you how the movie ends: With abandon-ware! Now, if the Roadmap was legally-enforceable we might be talking. But what is it really? A list of fun things to create demos for, that will be abandoned as soon as the new shiny appears.

    You know what would impress me a million times more than a Roadmap? A commitment to not adding a single new feature until Xamarin was reliable and the top 100 bugs were cleared.

    Anyway, for me, the whole point of a cross-platform framework is to save time and effort. Even without the reliability aspects, I'm not saving time over maintaining 3 separate native projects. It's a cool idea, but I don't think Microsoft cares if it will ever be "production-grade" (i.e. Word, Excel, Visual Studio, Windows XP, Windows 7, etc. quality).

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @Bill_Gates said:

    @NMackay said:
    There's many apps out there in the store with in Xamarin native & Forms, certain banks use it and pretty big companies, prominent digital agencies etc. It's been used in production (our Forms app is in three stores), I don't get the production-grade title.

    Hey, if Xamarin saves you time, then great, I'm glad for you. Obviously, "production-grade" is a subjective term that means different things to different people. But what pushed me over the edge were the following:

    1. Getting stuck on Xamarin Forms 2.5.1.527436 for months due to UrhoSharp not being .NET Standard 2.0 compatible because Egor ignored a pull request to add it for five and a half months.

    2. No GUI designer and no hope of having one for many more years

    3. Build, deploy and load times, especially on iOS

    4. No UrhoSharp anti-aliasing on UWP. Instead of finding and fixing the problem, Egor just disabled anti-aliasing on all UWP sample projects. Because, you know, who needs good looking graphics on Windows in 2018?

    5. Lack of Windows 7 & 8 support

    6. The usual: Manually cleaning the build and restarting Visual Studio, random crashes, endless workarounds to beat Xamarin into doing what I want it to do, you know the drill.

    7. No hope that any of this will ever change. Let's face it: If the Microsoft acquisition was going to change anything, it would have happened by now. But everything is still the same as it ever was. Even in this thread, there are people still defending Xamarin and thinking that things will change. They make me laugh. It's like watching Charlie Brown thinking that Lucy won't pull the football away this time even though she did it a thousand times before.

    Someone above pointed to the "Roadmap". Hahahahahahahahahaha. We've seen the Roadmap a thousand times before. Let me spoil the plot and tell you how the movie ends: With abandon-ware! Now, if the Roadmap was legally-enforceable we might be talking. But what is it really? A list of fun things to create demos for, that will be abandoned as soon as the new shiny appears.

    You know what would impress me a million times more than a Roadmap? A commitment to not adding a single new feature until Xamarin was reliable and the top 100 bugs were cleared.

    Anyway, for me, the whole point of a cross-platform framework is to save time and effort. Even without the reliability aspects, I'm not saving time over maintaining 3 separate native projects. It's a cool idea, but I don't think Microsoft cares if it will ever be "production-grade" (i.e. Word, Excel, Visual Studio, Windows XP, Windows 7, etc. quality).

    It's a shame about the side projects like UrhoSharp that have fallen by the wayside, that's one of the downsides of been acquired by Microsoft.

    For a team like us, it allows us to hit all platforms with a small team and get access to the native API's, AR etc, I'll be the 1st to grumble about the issues in Visual Studio though, I just haven't seen an alternative that's any better and let's you re-use C# skills etc.

    It's not perfect but the truth is, there is no silver bullet for cross platform.

  • meepoumeepou FRMember ✭✭

    As I agree to the fact that there is many bugs and annoying stuff.

    You can't deny that they listen to the community and address what is most wanted (e.g : the VS performance improvements, the recent android build time update https://blog.xamarin.com/android-build-performance-reliability/), and still trying to push cross-platform further : Xamarin.Essentials

    Even tho it is not moving quickly enough as I wish it would, it does moves towards a good direction

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    Good article to provide a bit of balance (yes, lots of us love XAML)

    https://medium.com/@devsdna/xamarin-and-other-mythological-beasts-a95013486a2e

  • wallymwallym USInsider, Beta ✭✭✭

    I took on the journey through Xamarin in July, 2009. I've been on this train forever. I jumped on X.iOS and X.android. I looked at X.Forms and wasn't a quick jumper to it. Sure, I helped some customers, but didn't get very active on it.

    • I haven't been very active in the forums just because I found that SO was a better place to ask questions. There is just more action there. the forums themselves have a fundamental problem in that a web based forum requires that I got to the web site to learn what is going on. An email list comes to me so I can be more active.
    • I decided to jump into X.F a while back. I found it is actually pretty good, if you use it as it is intended. The problem is that no one actively weighs its limitations. The MSFT people look at this as Xaml, that's our stuff so we need to get the mobile developers to transfer over to X.F. You just aren't going to overcome the momentum of a bunch of Msft developer evangelists preaching X.F and Xaml. Don't try. I try to handle what I need, and not worry too much about other stuff.
    • I think that this is good feedback. The Xamarin people need to hear this.
  • Oh, and one more complaint about Xamarin.Forms. PLEASE remove all private, internal, sealed, etc!! I want to be able to shoot myself in the foot instead of having my hands tied behind my back.

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    Guessing everyone has caught this already

    https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-forms-4-0-preview/

  • JoeMankeJoeManke USMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NMackay I actually saw the link in my Facebook feed and came here to see if it had been posted somewhere on the forums.

  • JohnHairJohnHair GBMember ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShawnCastrianni.5092 said:

    As for Visual Studio for Win, I do NOT recommend it for anyone doing iOS dev. Absolutely, VS for Mac is the most productive way to go for Android/iOS development.

    I have the opposite view to this, but my networked Mac Mini is right next to me. :smile:
    Even in my private work on my MBP I use Win10 in Parallels with VS for Windows. For me it is head and shoulders above VS for Mac. It has come a long way sure, but the deficiencies for me rule it out as a primary development tool.

    Oh, and one more complaint about Xamarin.Forms. PLEASE remove all private, internal, sealed, etc!! I want to be able to shoot myself in the foot instead of having my hands tied behind my back.

    Yeah that is a royal pain in the ar$e to be sure. But be careful what you wish for, if they do that they need to support those interfaces going forward or introduce breaking changes more often.

  • NMackayNMackay GBInsider, University mod

    @ShawnCastrianni.5092

    Regarding no support on the forums, to be fair @LandLu & @ColeX who (I think) are MS employees do assist on the forums along with @JGoldberger so there is official support in some capacity, not like the halcyon days when we had direct Xamarin support but that's always the case when MS acquires something.

  • MigueldeIcazaMigueldeIcaza USXamarin Team Xamurai

    Hello,

    Generally, the lack of a commitment for a date stems from dealing with various unknowns, and making sure that we do not introduce regressions. That said, the UrhoSharp package with support for .NET Standard 2 was released a week ago.

    Our preference is to automate our builds and services, use existing publishing pipelines, and reproducible setups to build our software, and not rely on "one-off" hacks and packages.

    The former is a better engineering practice as we embed the knowledge into scripts, tools and we can debug, pinpoint, and learn in the future what works and what does not. It becomes shared knowledge. Developers doing 'one-off' builds on their machine can introduce accidental errors, can skip an important step and is generally not good engineering hygiene.

    On the topic of merging WPF XAML and Forms XAML - this is not really possible, this is equivalent to saying that it should be possible to merge English and Spanish, as they both use the same alphabet. Sure, something can be attempted, but it is neither the former or the latter, it is a new third thing.

  • FredyWengerFredyWenger CHInsider ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MigueldeIcaza
    Your statements regarding quality sounds good.

    But… you’r wrong…
    I can mix Inglés and Spanish sin problemas…

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