Forum Xamarin Cross Platform with Xamarin

Shame on Microsoft

irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
edited February 2018 in Cross Platform with Xamarin

Hi everyone,

I think that it is extremely disrespectful that Microsoft releases Visual Studio for Windows with .net standard support without giving MacOS .net standard support at the same time. Seriously Microsoft is a multi-billion dollar company you can't expect people to believe that Microsoft can't afford staff to keep both platforms up to date at the same time.

When are MacOS users going to get the .net standard support for creating new projects. Also when are MacOS users going to get Razor Intellisences??????

Seriously Microsoft when are you going to get your act to gather. Also razor support in visual studio code would be nice.

Regards,
Anthony

Posts

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    Visual Studio has a feedback button where you can voice that sentiment to them directly. Just FYI.
    VSMac is still a new product without the DECADES of development history the windows versions has. Its going to take time for it to catch up.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭

    Also linux users might appreciate being able to develop ios/android apps with official support too.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Hey Clint,

    Your comment is definitely valid for the razor intelligence. However both MacOS and Windows until recently had only PCL Library support. Microsoft chose to only update Windows to .net standard library support excluding MacOS users.

    Microsoft definitely has the resources to add support to both platforms at the same time.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2018

    I'm sure they would.
    You guys do realize that

    • Both C# and XAML are Microsoft developed languages.
    • That Visual Studio was a Windows application for decades before it went anywhere else.
      Right?

    Developing for Windows, on Windows was their income stream model for decades. Transitioning to open-source, cross-platform, git, etc. with full equal support across every OS doesn't happen in a mere 3-5 years.

    I mean, think about it. I'll bet it takes your company 3 years to develop a good app from scratch to final release to the client. And that's just an app - not an entire development industry with all the programs and back end support.
    I bang on MS too - especially for things they are saying they are currently working on and prioritizing that still doesn't get fixed - but I try to manage my expectations for thing like Microsoft treating MacOS like a first-class child. That's just not going to be their top priority when their core group of MSDN subscribers who pay the big bucks for things have wants and wishes that need their attention.

    You may not want to hear it but the simple truth is if you want all the good toys for C# and XAML then develop on Windows. Even if that means running a Windows Virtual Machine just for Visual Studio.

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh - Can you please edit the title for your post?
    Its "shame" with an 'e'

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Hey Clint,

    I agree that the vast majority of Microsoft clients are Windows users. However with the advent of the Internet and Cloud Computing Microsoft has discovered that the vast majority of Internet servers run Linux and as a result have become a cross platform company to remain relevant in the future.

    They have even become open source which is something they were fervently against until just a few years ago.

    I have been a Linux only user since 1999 until recently when I decided to become a MacOS user to develop iOS and Android apps. MacOS is basically freeBSD under the hood so I get all the Unix tools a Linux user would expect.

    Microsoft claims to be a serious cross platform technology provider and personally I believe them thus I am using their technology. However when the two platforms they Officially support for developers are not at parity then I believe it is justified for me to call them out on their prejudice or farsightedness on not providing equal support for both platforms.

    And while we are at it it is probably not that difficult for them to add Linux support seeing Xamarin Studio which Microsoft Visual Studio for Mac is based on came from Mono Develop which is a Linux application.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭

    Clint,

    Thanks, I have updated the title.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep. Servers run on Linux.
    But does your phone... or the large share of home computers where the money comes from?
    I'm just saying that most businesses "follow the money".

    Visual Studio for LInux probably wouldn't be all that hard. But again, nobody has infinite resources. You start with the 90% of the issues that affect 90% of the users. Then work your way down. Despite what the democrats will say, not everyone is equal. And in the eyes of the Windows Empire who do you think will get the prime cuts and who gets the scraps.

    Call them out on it. That's cool. Nobody say not to. I'm just tempering the rant with some realistic suggestions about how you can move forward with actual progress on making apps while you wait for those rants to be heard, prioritized and enacted upon.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Clint,

    According to the market surveys I have been reading 95% of smart phones run Android or iOs with 75% of smart phones running Android which uses Linux as the operating system under the hood and yes I have an Android phone so I do have Linux running my phone.

    That means that I can have over 5 billion devices running my software without even bothering with Windows. And as a side note most phone apps are free relying on Ads to support their applications. With the vast majority of Ad providers not even bothering to support Windows it's not a good sign for Microsoft's attempt at smartphone applications.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭

    On a side note I am currently using Googles Admob as my ad provider and they discontinued their support for Windows. Does anyone know who I can use for an Ad provider if I decide to support Windows? My application used Xamarin Forms so in theory it should not be to hard for me to support Windows if I can find a good Ad provider that supports Windows.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • AlexWhiteAlexWhite GBMember ✭✭✭

    I have worked with Microsoft since the late 80's and they will be working hard on getting it right, their focus will be bringing all those tools to windows first, getting it right on there then moving onto other platforms like linux, why would they focus on linux first, they don't make a penny out of the OS, but they do out of windows. They don't rush anything they try their best to get it right and not race to the market. There is still big problems with xamarin forms, I have stopped development for more than 6 months because it does not work properly, I want them to focus on getting stuff they already have out there working properly.

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2018

    And as a side note most phone apps are free relying on Ads to support their applications

    I'm not so sure about the 'most' part - since a large number of apps aren't public apps. There are huge numbers of apps that are built in-house for internal use. Take that massive British Airways app Xamarin used as a case study.... Or John Deere or that huge thing from some South American farming thing a couple years back.

    Also I take "most" with a huge grain of salt. I couldn't care less if yet another calculator/flashlight/currency converter app or 'shoot the birds game' comes out whether it is ad-supported or not. From a developer stand point I care about 'meaningful' grown-up, professional development projects not how many untrained kitchen table wackers are out there trying to get rich with no coding background from a $1/free app

    @AlexWhite said:
    I want them to focus on getting stuff they already have out there working properly.

    Just because that is worth repeating for the large numbers of us that want the same thing.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Hey Alex,

    I think Microsoft has a reputation of promising stuff before it's ready to try and prevent people going to the competition. They have done that in the past for years, promise something and then customers don't go with the competition that already have that functionality (With Xamarin I don't think they have any serious competiton). Yes Microsoft eventually deliver the features but it takes time.

    I don't expect Linux ide functionality because they don't currently offer it. They do have Visual Studio for Mac and so I would expect that they have parity with their Windows ide software for new features like the .net standard library for new projects.

    And for the record I think Microsoft Xamarin is the best option for mobile apps as the Google Flutter platform is still in alpha and does not have support from third party companies. The Qt Toolkit does not offer pricing on their website so that makes me scared to consider their offering and Phone Gab/Apache Cordova and Appcellerator Titanium don't appeal to me I like native apps.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • AlexWhiteAlexWhite GBMember ✭✭✭

    I think Microsoft were pushed to support the mac quickly as the main dev platform for IOS is mac (because of licensing) Linux has always been the poor cousin to windows, then mac from a Microsoft perspective. I watched many years go by with Microsoft desperately trying to get mobile to work, well before iPhones came into existence windows CE was an abject failure for them in the big scheme of things, Apple got it right first time and nailed it, Microsoft know now that even windows phone is pretty much doomed Apple and Google are miles in front of everyone else. I have tried phone gap and titanium but like you I like native apps, this is where xamarin have really excelled. I have been working with Xamarin tools for 6 years and I have a love hate relationship with them, when they work they are fantastic when they break its hell.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Hey Clint,

    Here is an article about free vs paid apps for Android which is 75% of the smart phone market.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/266211/distribution-of-free-and-paid-android-apps/

    Quote "This statistic shows the distribution of free and paid Android apps on the Google Play app store. As of the fourth quarter of 2017, 93.99 percent of all Android applications were available for free."

    Here is some more stats for both iOS and Android:
    https://www.braze.com/blog/in-app-purchase-stats/

    Android Quote "free apps with in-app purchases garner 98% of global Google Play revenue, according to App Annie."

    iOS Quote "For iOS, freemium apps generate a similar amount of overall revenue for the Apple App Store: 95% of global earnings."

    I find similar articles for both iOS and Android with multiple news/blog providers. It's safe to assume that at least 90% of smartphone users only use free apps which mean that you need to have at least a basic version of your app available for free that is supported by Ads and Window lacks Ad providers, hell Google probably the largest Ad provider discontinued Windows support.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Clint,

    As for company vs private user usage here is some stats about facebook.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/377808/distribution-of-facebook-users-by-device/
    " 95.1 percent of active user accounts accessed the social network via smartphone.:"

    Facebook is probably the largest social media provider and just one example of private individuals NOT companies using smartphones to access applications, Snapchat would be another.

    Yes some companies use smartphone apps exclusively but it does not compare to major companies like Facebook that are targeting individuals using smartphones.

    And no most app developers are not in the same league as facebook or snapchat they are just two examples of companies targeting individuals over company users.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭
    edited February 2018

    Hey Alex,

    I agree Microsoft probably released Visual Studio for Mac before it was ready at least compared to the Windows version. It needs Razor intelligence support for asp.net core applications and more templates in the ide. The templates for add new file should match that of visual studio for windows.

    In this case I am happy they released visual studio for Mac early as Microsoft have no valid competitors in the cross platform mobile application arena.

    It would be nice if Microsoft made the effort to have feature parity across supported platforms considering they are a multi billion dollar company they don't really have any excuse.

    And yes official support for ide development on Linux would be nice considering Visual Studio for Mac is based on Xamarin Studio which is based on Mono Develop which is a Linux application.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • ClintStLaurentClintStLaurent USUniversity ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree Microsoft probably released Visual Studio for Mac before it was ready

    The first Visual Studio Mac was Xamarin Studio mac, re-themed and re-branded. From there they seem to be adding on Visual Studio-like features.

    It isn't/wasn't a purpose-built Visual Studo for Mac application, from the ground up.

  • irwa82irwa82 AUMember ✭✭

    Hey Clint,

    I agree totally, thus why I have said multiple times that visual studio for Mac is based on xamarin studio which is based on mono develop a linux application.

    Regards,
    Anthony

  • AlexWhiteAlexWhite GBMember ✭✭✭

    Anthony,

    I think their focus was mainly due to the ability to develop IOS apps on windows when paired with a mac somewhere, for linux all this has to be written from the ground up, Apple don't make this easy. Personally never paid too much attention to figures for usage between apple and google stuff, I have two commercial apps that were unique enough that users moved from google devices to apple just so they could use the apps, I resisted writing android versions so I could focus on the IOS versions properly. The whole cross platform thing has a few years to go before it matures properly in my view, I was working on a forms app and with hindsight it would have been quicker to write as two native apps one pure IOS and one pure Android app.

  • 3DClayman3DClayman Member

    We have seen a lot of people using our services for the MONO project and Docker containers to help them move off Xamarin. www.sinenomine.net

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